Hiro wrote:やった！

My seedlings, planted last Sunday, are beginning to sprout. I've got numerous Thyme sprouts, a couple of Basil, a couple cucumber. No sign of the peppers, tomatoes or tomatillos yet.

JoelF wrote:

Hiro wrote:やった！

My seedlings, planted last Sunday, are beginning to sprout. I've got numerous Thyme sprouts, a couple of Basil, a couple cucumber. No sign of the peppers, tomatoes or tomatillos yet.

tomatoes take about 2 weeks. peppers can take forever. just when you are ready to give up, they sprout. do you have a heat source underneath them?

you started the cucumbers way to early i think.

No, no warmer: I've thought about it, but I spill too much water
The room is reasonably warm, though, and it's off the floor and a bit away from the windows.

If the cukes get too leggy, I'll start over. They're bush type, so worst case scenario I figure I'll grow 'em in big pots until it's warm enough outside.

H-Mart is selling Asian vegetable seeds in two locations in the store: big packets with pictures are available in the produce section on the housewares side: they include (besides some relatively ordinary lettuces and cucumbers) chrysanthemum, chili peppers, cucumbers, pak choi, napa, and shiso leaves (I was lucky enough to be rummaging the bin with a very nice lady who kept putting packets into my hands and insisting I try them - she assured me the chili peppers weren't too hot - even for a non-Asian .)

The jade bed store near the exit is also selling a large selection of seeds, unfortunately they are home-packed and labeled with pen in an Asian language (I assume it's Korean, but when it's handwriting I have an even harder time distinguishing the characters.) I asked about culantro, the store owner said he didn't have any but I'm not sure he understood (I said "culantro, the herb you use in pho," realizing, at minimum, I could be taken to mean basil and cilantro as well.) I should have taken a picture to see if somebody could translate, but my cell-phone probably wouldn't get enough detail.

I'm pretty excited about the prospect of culantro - after trying it at Pho Le, I decided I prefer it to cilantro - and am very excited that a) it needs shade, which I've got, and b) the plant cycle (70-90 days to maturity) is about the same as tomatoes, so I'll have the ingredients I want together at the same time! Johnny's seeds sells it but it's on backorder, I might see if I can find seedlings online as I've seen that it's difficult to germinate from seed. Anybody have experience with it? (LAZ, I think you mentioned it a while back?)

I was looking at the EBs yesterday as I was grilling lovely prime steaks from Costco for dinner. I don't have a definitive list yet and will likely get started a bit late, but possibilities include:

heirloom tomatoes - probably 2 plants, maybe 4
okra - mmmm, I love me some good okra, but haven't tried it EB style yet
lettuce mix, to be replaced by.....something
pole beans
basil (2 types, maybe 3)
thyme
oregano
parsley
cilantro
mint
at least one or two other herbs that look interesting

Since I once again got started too late, I doubt I'll start tomatoes myself, but will rely on Gesthemane for lovely heirloom choices. I prefer some of the varieties I have to start, but unless I pick something under 70 days, it's doubtful I'd start harvesting soon enough to have that work. Then again, I could order some heirlooms already started....

I've not yet tried tomatillos in the EBs, but surely used to love them in my garden. If anyone has extra space and loves salsa, I highly recommend the purple variety. I also loved growing flageolets and peas in an in-ground largish garden, but it seems a bit indulgent when I only have a small amount of room and they produce (especially the peas) for such a short period. I could, I suppose, replace the peas with something else, however.

you can still grow tomatoes from seed if you start like today.

ViewsAskew wrote:...possibilities include:... cilantro ...

I just got this book out of the library:
Incredible Vegetables from Self-Watering Containers: Using Ed's Amazing POTS System (Paperback)
by Edward C. Smith (Author)
This book came up as a recommendation when I got my EB from amazon.

The author recommends not using a self-watering container for cilantro as the continuous water supply will cause the roots to rot. He says many herbs, such as cilantro and dill, work better in 'traditional' containers because they grow better when they are allowed to dry a little now and then. I'm a novice container gardener, just passing the advice along. I have some cilantro seedlings growing with my first-crop lettuce in my new EB-- maybe I will transplant some and leave some in the EB for a controlled experiment!

Cheers, Jen

I grew some herbs last year, after my lettuce was harvested, so it wasn't even a full year. I grew two basil, two parsley, two rosemary, and two thyme. They did wonders in the EBs, so much so that I may consider using a regular container this year. The basil and parsley were both amazing growers. The thyme was impressive as well but the rosemary struggled a little as it was over powered by the fast growing basil plants.

Cilantro is a hard herb to grow in any environment. It bolts quick in warm weather but I found that after it bolts, you can take the seeds (coriander) and replant them to get another quick crop. You'll need to do this almost on a weekly basis though as this crop bolts quick during our summer heat.

teatpuller wrote:you can still grow tomatoes from seed if you start like today.

Yes, but I can't start today...I'd have to fin them, decide which to order, place the order and then go get all my growing stuff out of storage, etc. etc. If lucky, I'd get them in by April 1. It's still doable even then, but I'd have preferred to have them in last week or so. Not sure I want to stress myself worrying about it and trying to get it all done. Though, I dearly love Odoriko and I'm not likely to get them except by growing them. It's one of the few non-heirloom varieties I have tried that is truly delicious.

JenM wrote:

ViewsAskew wrote:...possibilities include:... cilantro ...

I just got this book out of the library:
Incredible Vegetables from Self-Watering Containers: Using Ed's Amazing POTS System (Paperback)
by Edward C. Smith (Author)
This book came up as a recommendation when I got my EB from amazon.

The author recommends not using a self-watering container for cilantro as the continuous water supply will cause the roots to rot. He says many herbs, such as cilantro and dill, work better in 'traditional' containers because they grow better when they are allowed to dry a little now and then. I'm a novice container gardener, just passing the advice along. I have some cilantro seedlings growing with my first-crop lettuce in my new EB-- maybe I will transplant some and leave some in the EB for a controlled experiment!

Cheers, Jen

Huh. Guess I've been lucky. I've grown it for the last three or four years and not had a problem. I usually do one of the non EB containers (Garderner's Supply) and fill it with 8 to 10 herbs, including a couple of mints, two or three types of basil, oregano, parsley, etc. The cilantro doesn't like replanting much, but it does OK. Not great, but enough to suit the needs of my two-person household. I also have grown dill and it does...OK. Not great, and maybe that's why. Oh, and they both end up bolting, as Tyrus mentioned, so they don't last that long anyway. Another reason that maybe it works OK. By mid July both are usually done. Last year I think the dill hung on until almost August, which was weird. OH! And that reminds me. Last year I didn't grow cilantro - I grew a Korean cilantro instead. Not even sure where I found it.

With this container, I don't use a top cover thingee, though. I let it get water from the top, using it more like a regular container. It's only when it gets really warm that I start filling it from the bottom. That may be why it tends to work OK. Although they say it doesn't work well that way, I've not had a problem doing it with the herbs.

Good luck with your experiment, Jen.

Well, not really vegetables....but Tyrus, I seem to remember you did strawberries last year. I don't have a garage or anywhere to overwinter the EBs. Is it worth it to grow new strawberry plants every year? In the garden days, I had a lovely bed but didn't have to worry about the overwintering issue. I am afraid I'd lose them because there is so little soil to protect them, even if I mulched. That box temp must get very cold in comparison to the ground. (Just my guess.) On the other hand, each year I'm surprised when the mint comes back from my herb EB, or last year my creeping thyme either self-sowed or came back. So, maybe it's not impossible to think the strawberries could survive.

Also, up until now, I've always planted things I could start ahead a buy started. Anyone have tips or rules they follow for what they plant started and what they seed directly? For example, beans would probably be best planted from seed.

I spent some time on the EB forum tonight. I saw that a few people like the slow release fertilizers, like osmocote, but I didn't really see any rationale. Anyone tried that - if so, why and what were your results?

I've definitely decided on okra, green and lima beans, greens/salad mix, chard, tomatoes, and herbs. I haven't decided on strawberries, cucumbers (the staking seems a bit difficult given my small deck), or spinach.

I haven't decided if I'll try bush or pole beans. If I was reading the posts correctly, it sounded like more people preferred bush to pole. In a regular garden, I often preferred pole because I had a longer season and wasn't swamped at one time with excess beans. Not sure if it was the staking that people didn't like or if it was yield or something else.

ViewsAskew wrote:Well, not really vegetables....but Tyrus, I seem to remember you did strawberries last year. I don't have a garage or anywhere to overwinter the EBs. Is it worth it to grow new strawberry plants every year? In the garden days, I had a lovely bed but didn't have to worry about the overwintering issue. I am afraid I'd lose them because there is so little soil to protect them, even if I mulched. That box temp must get very cold in comparison to the ground. (Just my guess.) On the other hand, each year I'm surprised when the mint comes back from my herb EB, or last year my creeping thyme either self-sowed or came back. So, maybe it's not impossible to think the strawberries could survive.

I would recommend against strawberries since they don't have the time to mature in the fist year. Last year, mine were best in September (ever producing variety) and I had about 3-4 waves of strawberries from six plants in one planter. They stayed small and were a little tart but I liked the taste. With my EBs and limited space, I'm trying to focus on higher yield plants (tomatoes, peppers, etc.). I just didn't get as many strawberries as I would have liked.

Nice list for this year though...

Thanks, Tyrus. I thought that might be the case. If I had someplace to overwinter the box, I'd be set. Hmmm, there is a party deck in the condo building with a kitchen attached. No one uses it all winter. Maybe I could stuff my boxes in there. It's not heated, but is protected, probably stays in the 40's or 50's.

Today, I took advantage of our early warmth and extended dry period and did garden cleanup (can barely stay awake in fact, after all that work).
The soil is remarkably tillable for so early. I still need to get some new mulch down, maybe add a few bags of dirt to what's been settling since my back yard was landscaped after the addition was put in.

But I planted a row of snap peas, and about 10 cloves of garlic that had sprouted on my countertop. Never tried planting garlic before, I'll have to see how it comes out. I figure the worst case scenario is tasty garlic scapes.

Garlic should be planted in late autumn. One old saw is plant garlic on the shortest day of the year and harvest on the longest day. Good luck trying that in the Chicago area. Our garlic planted in December is about two inches tall. Even so, planting sprouting cloves can work for green garlic just about any time. We have some in a planter box on a windowsill in the sun room that have provided a good supply of fresh green shoots over the last couple months and are now looking a bit peaked from the clipping.

The general rule for planting peas is as soon as the ground is workable. We planted onion sets plus sugar snap and snow peas this afternoon.

I start tomatoes with bottom heat and fairly strong fluorescent lights and find that six weeks before May 15 is early enough. Otherwise the plants become too large and have more transplanting shock. Lake winds make Lincoln Square too cold to plant many warm season crops before very late May even though there is nearly zero chance of frost after May 15.

OK, I went for it. I'll probably be sorry (in terms of the demands on my time), but thrilled to have veggies in varieties I like or am trying the first time.

I placed an order from Nichols and from Bountiful Gardens. Since it's so busy right now, I might pay a penalty in terms of how quickly I get seeds, but even if I'm a bit late getting things in, I made sure I got things with relatively short seasons, so I'd be OK in the long run.

I also bought much more than I can possibly grow a lot of - so I'll be only growing one to three plants of each item. My order included:

Cajun Delight Okra
Little Lucy Okra
Erbette chard
Heirloom lettuce mix (leaf, cos and butter combined)
Rose tomato
Honey Bunch Grape tomato
Motomaro tomato
Black Prince tomato
Basil mix (sweet, Genovese, cinnamon, Thai)
Spicy basil mix (clove, cinnamon, anise, and something...)
Thorogreen lima
Oriental giant spinach
Dwarf Sunspot sunflowers
Dwarf Petit Bouquet sunflowers
Explorer sweet pea
Straight and Narrow bush bean
Gai Lohn
Tsoi Sim/Choy Sum

Uh-oh. It seems so much larger when I type it here than when I was clicking on "Order this fun, tasty, interesting, special [insert adjective] variety of veggie, herb, or flower....

Now, to find the stuff hidden in the bowels of storage so I can get these started as soon as they arrive (or the ones I am starting indoors, that is).

I'll still need to buy a few things, like oregano, etc., but this will keep me busy for months to come.

Wow...just a week after placing an order with Bountiful Gardens, my seeds and inoculant are here! I'd not ordered there before, so didn't order much, but tomorrow I can head to storage to find my seed starting stuff and get some basil mix and Rose tomatoes started. I can also plant some lettuce outside immediately in an EB (or maybe plant a bunch inside and transplant in a few weeks). I think I'll wait a couple of weeks to start the chard outside.

I can also plant some lettuce outside immediately in an EB (or maybe plant a bunch inside and transplant in a few weeks). I think I'll wait a couple of weeks to start the chard outside.

Based on long, hard experience, I would really hold off on thinking about planting anything outside until May 1 at the very, very earliest - even seed peas will just rot in the ground if it's too cold and wet. Also, and again, this is based on my positive experience with direct-sowing basil last spring, instead of planting now and hoping for the best in transplanting later, just direct sow it when the soil is nice and warm. Basil sprouts and grows quickly under nice warm conditions, but sulks terribly if transplanted into cold, wet soil. I waited until about May 20 or so (maybe a bit later, come to think of it) and I had a handsome hedge of 'Siam Queen' Thai basil by late June that grew rapidly and produced like a champ clear through until early October.

Never rush planting in this part of the county for your heat-loving plants, e.g., tomatoes, basil of all kinds, chiles and bell-type peppers, etc. It's really counterproductive!

Oh, absolutely agreed about most things, Sundevilpeg. I always start my warm weather things inside, including herbs and the like. There are only a few things I plant direct and many I wait until much warmer, such as green beans.

I was wondering more about lettuce in the EarthBoxes and if direct sowing would work with the covers you're supposed to always use. Given that I'm in the city, relatively close to the lake, and have a protected balcony that is close to the building so it's quite a bit warmer than other parts of the Chicago area, April 1 is definitely within target for lettuce outside. If it was to actually freeze for more than a few hours, I could easily cover it or even bring it in.

I did a little searching, and this site says to use transplants in the EBs because of the cover. But, I'm almost sure I read someone else saying they planted directly with success.

In the past, I successfully planted peas in April. I don't think I even made March, but I can't recall problems in April. As you said, though, soggy ground can be an issue. Good drainage helps, but if it's a really wet month, it's just plain hard. If you plant them too late - such as early May, you run the risk of simply not getting any.

I direct planted Zucchini and bush beans in my homemade sub irrigated planters ( SIPs = earthbox) with much success last year. I believe I explained it over in the the "Earthboxes, anyone?" post. Anyways, The way I did it was to cover just the fertilizer bed with plastic until the seedlings were big enough to get through the plastic, then i covered the entire box. It was a bit of a pain (Took a lot of messing around to get the holes in exactly the right spots) but it worked just fine.

One thing I'd like to add is my experience with lettuce last year in SIPs. I had some lettuce planted in just a standard container, and some of the same seed in the same conditions in my SIP. I found that the lettuce in the standard container did just as well as the ones in the SIP did. I've had similar experience with the herbs, radishes, and beets. Personally, I wont plant lettuce, herbs, radishes, or the like in a SIP cause I feel like I get more out of the SIPs growing more demanding veggies and I have a glut of regular containers. There is a HUGE difference between tomatoes grown in a normal container and a SIP, not so much with those others.

Here is a view of a directly seeded SIP prior to germination:


and post germination:

I also have some row cover fabric from long ago....I thought I could potentially use it to do what you did with plastic, being as I can't find my EB covers that I purchased last year

I think it depends on your situation whether SIPs should be used for other stuff like lettuce, herbs, flowers, etc. I have no spigot outside so have to carry the water from the bathroom and I have a very hot roof deck. Between the two, I've chosen to only use SIPs for anything I plant, with the exception of two hanging planters. These are reserved for flowers that can handle some dryness, because middle of August, they need water daily, and I'm not always able to comply. But, even my tomatoes can usually go every other day when they are large and it's hot. To me, that makes the price of the SIPs worth it. If I could water easily, I'd probably grow more large produce than I do.

Yeah I hear you, that would be a real pain to haul all that water. I'm impressed you manage to grow so much having to haul it all up the stairs!

If you are near Webster/Damen and need any black plastic you can have some, last year i bought enough for about 3 lifetimes =)

Thanks for the offer. I may take you up on it. For the record, I don't have to carry the water up the stairs - just through several rooms and onto the deck. But, it's still a pain! I can get a hose to go there, but my DH can't stand it traipsing through the house and I have to put it away each time....I'd rather carry the water, I think.

Reading this forum motivated me to try to plant something beside flowers this year. I bought some tomato plants (Early Girl??) that I put in pots. I have two questions. Do I need to now bring them back inside or are they ok weather-wise? Also, the gardening person helped me to pick out the potting mixture (some sort of Miracle Grow for Flowers and Vegetables). After planting, I looked at the bag and it was Miracle Grow for Plants. (The first bag had been ripped and I took the second one without looking at it since I thought they were all the same.) Do I now need to add something to the soil? or will that potting mix be ok?
Thanks for your help. If these work, I'll be excited to try planting more things.

janeyb wrote:Do I need to now bring them back inside or are they ok weather-wise?

Great googly moogly! Get them inside now!

It's supposed to snow tomorrow.

Mid-may is probably the earliest you want them outside if you're north of 40th St., knock a week or so off south of there.

Regarding fertilizing, Tomatoes will appreciate fertilizing, but of course don't over do it.

I've put out tomatoes this early in the past, but I've surrounded them with a Wall O' Water (available from many sources; this is just one).

photo courtesy Burpee

I'd forgotten about those wall-o-water thingees. I ordered about 12 of them a long time ago. I never used them, then had a house fire and they were lost. Your post made me remember it was just one more thing I'd forgotten about that I didn't claim. Which reminds me how important it is to periodically take pictures of EVERYTHING you own and put them in a lock box in a bank. For years I'd go to use some cooking utensil or item and say, "Shoot, I had one of those. Where could it be?" and then remember it was yet another thing I forgot I'd had and then had to go buy another one.

I finally got around to taking a few pictures of this year's garden. This will be my second year, after a successful first year of growing on my rooftop. I learned some things from last year and will try to incorporate them into this year's garden. Although it's been nice lately in Chicago, the temps could still drop, especially at night so I'm waiting another week or so for the warm weather crops.

I've planted some broccoli (green goliath and romanesco), swiss chard (rainbow), escorole, lettuce (green salad bowl and Merveille de Quatre Saisons), arugula (apollo), and some herbs (parsley and chervil) so far. I'll be adding two pepper varieties, five tomato varieties, two string bean varieties, zucchini, cucumber, and some more herbs in the next week or two.

Also this year, I'll be installing the EB automatic watering system (in the next 2-3 weeks). To date, I've rotated the boxes, "freshened up the potting mix," and installed some wind barriers (until the plants have a chance on their own. I'll keep you posted but here are some pics:

Overall garden (I'm trying the red box covers from EB this year for the tomatoes)


Escarole, Chard, and Lettuces


Broccoli


Merveille de Quatre Saisons

Being a beautiful day, and more importantly being the last afternoon I could borrow my neighbor's car until Monday, I decided to hunt for my potting mix. I went farthest first: Lowe's. They had no potting mix without fertilizer. Zero. But, they did have 3.8 cubic feet bundles of peat. They had a tiny little bag of vermiculite. One tiny bag (maybe 8 dry quarts?).

I asked if they had more or larger. Nope. The guy sent me to what he said was a local garden center close by. It turned out to be an exceptionally nice looking mom/pop greenhouse (maybe on MHays list). But, they weren't a garden center, having no supplies.

Back to Lowe's. I bought the peat, and the single container of vermiculite along with a single of perlite.

Next stop, physical therapy. When that was done, next stop Home Depot. I considered the Ace on Belmont, but wasn't sure when my neighbor needed his car, so just went to Home Depot.

They had the same peat, but no vermiculite. They also had zero types of potting mix without fertilizer. I started noticing this trend a few years ago, but it was just some, not all! Now, it's all (at these big box stores, at any rate). They had small containers of perlite, too. Both places has humus, compost, mushroom compost, etc. I decided to buy a bag of one of the organic composts.

I believe both had the Espoma stuff, but potentially different. I bought a general fertilizer, the Bio Tone Starter Plus and some dolomite (lime), but not sure which were at what store...

After I moistened the peat, I mixed 7.5 parts of the peat, 1.5 of the vermiculite, 1 perlite, and .5 of the compost. I decided to try the Bio Tone Starter Plus and mix in some with the lime in the top 3 or 4 inches of the planters. I only had enough vermiculite for 2 planters. Now I have to find more....without a car. Or rent a car. At least this allowed me to remove the icky mix from last year out of two containers and transfer the lettuce and some greens into the new mix.

Carrying those heavy bags of too heavy wet old nasty potting mix down from the deck and to the dumpster sure was work!

For me, today was the day the rubber hit the road-- or at least the roots hit the soil. We just had a large tree chopped down, making the backyard sunny for the first time ever and providing a lot of great organic matter for the soil. So much for the shade garden, which was destroyed in the process of grinding out the stump. Time for veg. Today we put out 5 Brandywine and one Rose tomato. Only one Rose germinated from my very old seed, so I am very curious to see how it compares to other tomatoes. The garden so far:

Tomatoes, as above
4 cucumbers,
6 Habaneros (Hot Paper Lantern from Johnny's)
6 Cherry Peppers
Dill, basil, rosemary.
Goblin egg gourds, ornamental.

For the tomatoes, one Brandywine and the Rose plant are in the Earthbox; the rest are in the earth.

Thanks for the inspiration on this thread--I hope we don't get hail tonight! Tomorrow we plant pole beans!

Jen