I was there last Saturday night (after seeing Kinsey - so you can guess where my mind was ...)

Actually, if you saw "Kinsey" and ran straight to Merle's, then I'm not really sure where your mind was - or if I want to know.

Thanks for the lowdown though. Just what I was hoping to find out. Given the 2 positives in this thread, I'm surprised Merle's hasn't come up before now. Can't wait to try it.

Took the kids for a long drive (aka nap) yesterday and found myself way up in Wheeling. Le Francais? Don Roth's? McDonald's? Saw a Hackney's and decided to try that north shore staple, famous for fabulous burgers.

Yeah, well, so is Redamak's, and that blew. Hackney's burger didn't blow THAT bad, I could see good things about it-- very fresh beef, mainly-- but compared to a dozen bars I could walk to there was nothing distinguished about [it]....I feel like airlifting Jury's burgers into Wheeling on 2 for 1 night and blowing an entire people's minds.

Well said, and so true....I don't care which location we're talking about--Lake St., Wheeling, and even admitting that the Harms Rd. Hackney's is a little better than the other outposts--the Hackneyburger just ain't anything special. Not as good as Jury's, not as good as Pete Miller's, not as good as Square Kitchen, not even as good as Moody's or a couple other places that I've tried recently that I can't even remember the names of. Not inedible, but just not better than middling, nondescript, unremarkable, mediocre, serviceable. And as for the onion loaf--ehh, I can take it or leave that, too. The whole Hackney's cult is much ado about nothing as far as I'm concerned. I do like the Harms Rd. patio in the summer, though.

But as long as the topic is at least partially focused on north suburban legends that disappoint, I would like to point out that Charlie Beinlich's, the burger legend of Northbrook, also BLOWS! Again, not the worst burger I've ever had, but nothing special in terms of quality, preparation, size or price. If Beinlich's were located in Lincoln Square or North Center, it sure wouldn't be packed from 5PM on a Saturday until closing time. In fact, it might not be in business at all, what with having to face off against real competition and all....

So, I picked up a slice of pepperoni from Got Pizza (the Halsted+Division location) today, hoping to find a slice better than the slightly-above-average Santullo's.

Unfortunately, it wasn't. I don't want to say it was bad, because it wasn't, but it sure wasn't good.

The crust was foldable and had some nice crunch to it, but the sauce was bland and the cheese was, I dare say, not dissimilar to frozen pizza cheese. All in all, it was average, or below average, pizza.

I saw them making a pizza while I was waiting for mine to heat up, and it was definitely hand-stretched rather than tossed. After making the semi-round, it was rolled with a perforator to eliminate big air bubbles, a pizza plate was laid over it and the dough was trimmed to round, and it was sauced, topped, and shoved into the oven. Nothing exciting.

The cheese is standard grated, rather than sliced, mozzarella. To my taste buds it was somewhat lower quality part-skim mozz.

The crust was thicker than Santullo's, the cheese not as tasty, and the sauce devoid of almost all flavor. It was somewhat disappointing.

-ed

Okay, fine, so we were desperate for something decent after Hecky's. We owe you $1.95. SORRRRREEEEEE!!!!!!

Mike G wrote:Okay, fine, so we were desperate for something decent after Hecky's. We owe you $1.95. SORRRRREEEEEE!!!!!!

$3.29

nr706 wrote:

mrbarolo wrote:Has anyone tried Merle's in Evanston?

I was there last Saturday night (after seeing Kinsey - so you can guess where my mind was ...) and got seated in the famous Elvis booth - famous because the restaurant was closed for a while after a fire started in that booth a few years ago. Merle's is one of the Clean Plate Club restaurants - basically modeled after Rich Melman's empire, just not quite so successful. The group also includes Davis St. Fishmarket and Pete Miller's Steakhouse, and (formerly) Tommy Nevin's Pub (I believe they sold off the latter, but they developed the concept).

Oh, I guess I should comment on Merle's food. Excellent. Reliable. Been there many times. They do Texas BBQ as well as anyplace I've been in Texas (we refer to the beef ribs as "dinosaur ribs" - they're that big) and they also do Carolina pulled pork as well as anywhere around here - with the possible exception of the original Russell's in Elmwood Park (although I haven't been there lately, and I've heard though non-reliable sources that it's gone downhill lately).

I ate at Mele's once and found the ribs to be passable, but not great. But, as anyone who knows anything about BBQ can tell you, BBQ in Texas is Brisket first and foremost, not ribs or pork products, which are sold as an afterthought in most Texas BBQ places. The hierarchy of Texas BBQ, IMHO, is brisket, sausage, turkey/chicken, ribs and never (or very rarely) pulled pork.

stevez wrote:BBQ in Texas is Brisket first and foremost

Not necessarily. Depends on which part of Texas you're in.

gleam wrote:So, I picked up a slice of pepperoni from Got Pizza (the Halsted+Division location) today, hoping to find a slice better than the slightly-above-average Santullo's.

Unfortunately, it wasn't. I don't want to say it was bad, because it wasn't, but it sure wasn't good.

The crust was foldable and had some nice crunch to it, but the sauce was bland and the cheese was, I dare say, not dissimilar to frozen pizza cheese. All in all, it was average, or below average, pizza.

I saw them making a pizza while I was waiting for mine to heat up, and it was definitely hand-stretched rather than tossed. After making the semi-round, it was rolled with a perforator to eliminate big air bubbles, a pizza plate was laid over it and the dough was trimmed to round, and it was sauced, topped, and shoved into the oven. Nothing exciting.

The cheese is standard grated, rather than sliced, mozzarella. To my taste buds it was somewhat lower quality part-skim mozz.

The crust was thicker than Santullo's, the cheese not as tasty, and the sauce devoid of almost all flavor. It was somewhat disappointing.

-ed

I also went this afternoon. I'll agree that the pizza wasn't the best I ever had, but it wasn't bad and I thought it was a pretty fair representation of New York pizza. I'll also agree that Santulo's was more to my liking for that type of pizza.

While I was there, they were also making pizzas. I guess I saw less of the process than Gleam, because what I saw was what looked like a large stack of round cardboard pizza liners (what are those things really called?). It turns out that the cardboard pizza rounds were actually premade crusts that were stacked up ready to be slathered with (IMHO) a little too much sauce, covered with shredded cheese and put into the oven.

I'm really surprised at how good the final product is after being made with ingredients that look like they are destined for the freezer at the Jewel, left to sit out for who knows how long and then reheated. Maybe that's the "secret" of New York Style pizza.

nr706 wrote:

stevez wrote:BBQ in Texas is Brisket first and foremost

Not necessarily. Depends on which part of Texas you're in.

Texas is a BIG place. What part of Texas are you referring to?

stevez wrote:

nr706 wrote:

stevez wrote:BBQ in Texas is Brisket first and foremost

Not necessarily. Depends on which part of Texas you're in.

Texas is a BIG place. What part of Texas are you referring to?

My impression is that brisket BBQ is big in the Hill Country (Austin, etc.), not as important in areas like Texarkana, Harlingen or El Paso. I could be wrong; I just thought that the statement "BBQ in Texas is Brisket first and foremost" was a bit too broad to be accurate. You're right; Texas is a big place.

stevez wrote:Maybe that's the "secret" of New York Style pizza.

Hey Steve,

Get stuffed!


A

Yes, Texas is a big place and the best brisket is had outside Fredricksburg, Austin, and San Marcos. However, as an addendum to my Hecky's Fie!, I was well aware that the Chicago Hecky's is a franchise. As per our first order I thought the best part was the sauce(which really wasn't all that best). Later, the s/o(a ribtip hound), upon being apprised of Evanston Hecky's pretty chicken pictures, had a hankerin' for fowl. It was crispy, it was juicy(arm-spurtingly-so), it was also woefully under seasoned---I know salt after years of homecook training, learning that the "TV chef smidgen o' salt" is for the orthorexic rubes and not for actual cooks. If you're gonna gobble flour and fat might you want some salt too?

Antonius wrote:

stevez wrote:Maybe that's the "secret" of New York Style pizza.

Hey Steve,

Get stuffed!


A

No. I might be tempted to get dished, but never stuffed!

BTW, Antonius, my rants about New York pizza aren't really because I necessarily dislike it. It's just that sometimes I feel that our own Chicago pizza gets very unfairly dissed here on LTH a little too much, so I try to overcompensate a little bit for the chow snobbery shown by some.

nr706 wrote:

stevez wrote:

nr706 wrote:

stevez wrote:BBQ in Texas is Brisket first and foremost

Not necessarily. Depends on which part of Texas you're in.

Texas is a BIG place. What part of Texas are you referring to?

My impression is that brisket BBQ is big in the Hill Country (Austin, etc.), not as important in areas like Texarkana, Harlingen or El Paso. I could be wrong; I just thought that the statement "BBQ in Texas is Brisket first and foremost" was a bit too broad to be accurate. You're right; Texas is a big place.

Well, everywhere I've been in Texas, the story is Brisket. Never been in Harlington, but I have been in Arlington...suburb of Dallas . I've never heard anyone from Texas talk about anything other than brisket on any of the BBQ lists that I am on. After all, Texas is cattle country. I'd be curious if there really is a pork subculture somewhere in Texas.

This outpost makes KFC,Popeyes and the chicken from the floor of Old Country Buffet look mighty good.

Merle's is OK, not awful, and a good location, but nothing special. Compared to the late, great NN Smokehouse, it's awful, but my pulled pork gold standard has been gone for a while.

Re the Texas issue, I have never seen pulled pork in my Texas travels, shich include Amarillo, Houston, DFW, and San Antonio. For that matter, I don't recall seeing it in KC, either. One can find BBQ pork in Arizona, but it's much different - usually mesquite enters into the picture, it's sliced, and the sauce, provided separately, isn't of any Southern type, but instead not sweet and rather hot and smoky.

Lord, I miss NN...not just the pork and the BBQ chicken, but those beans! Mmmmmmm...I used to put not only the slaw but the beans on my sammiches. So good.... *breaks into tears*

sundevilpeg wrote:Lord, I miss NN...not just the pork and the BBQ chicken, but those beans! Mmmmmmm...I used to put not only the slaw but the beans on my sammiches. So good.... *breaks into tears*

The guy from NN is now at LT's Grill, 1800 W Grand, and the BBQ there is pretty good. And it's BYOB (as I believe NN was).

Just a few misc. thoughts:

Steve Z, I got your back on this pizza thing!

As to Chicago BBQ digression, we've talked about this before, but I think we have to take into account a few key things. First, for the most part, for various regulatory and economic reasons, places around us cannot build real "pits" or smokers. Near my hotel in NW Austin, even the sleazy, Hooteresque, Bone Daddy's had a real smoker with huge piles of oak logs for it. Where does one see anything like that around here? Second, there is the whole question of having the meat ready. Most of the great Texas BBQ places have limited hours, when their meat runs out, they're done for the day, and you are always getting meat taken right off the pit. It is that ideal state of readiness I think more than anything that makes the Texas Q so great.

Rob

I'm pretty sure the Merle's pulled pork is aiming to be North Carolina style. It is NOT good. It's in fact a large amount of pork, and pulled, but no flavor - no smoke flavor, no sauce flavor, no nothing.

Hecky's does a better job with their pulled pork sandwiches, but it's a woefully small portion of meat and there's no cole slaw on it.

HI,

On the regulatory issue, I think there is something there. I heard Hecky on the radio referring to someone who didn't like his smoke odors. Whomever it was contacted the EPA or IEPA, though it was finally resolved in his favor. Even if the odor is permissible, just the process of regulatory vetting and related costs to submit supporting (or defending) information, may discourage an otherwise legal business.

Cathy2 wrote:HI,

On the regulatory issue, I think there is something there. I heard Hecky on the radio referring to someone who didn't like his smoke odors. Whomever it was contacted the EPA or IEPA, though it was finally resolved in his favor. Even if the odor is permissible, just the process of regulatory vetting and related costs to submit supporting (or defending) information, may discourage an otherwise legal business.

When the weather's decent (i.e. not now) my typical bicycling route is Asbury -> Emerson -> Ridge and north ... so I go right past Hecky's and love the smell of (hickory?) smoke wafting through the air.

Hecky is a great guy, done a lot for the community, but hasn't been able to completely avoid controversy (the famous "Mutt" comment comes to mind).

Vital Information wrote:First, for the most part, for various regulatory and economic reasons, places around us cannot build real "pits" or smokers.

Rob,

A Chicago style 'Aquarium' style smoker is a 'real pit' A few places even burn all wood, Honey One for example. Unfortunately most, with just a few exceptions, even some of the straight wood burners like I 57, do not produce good BBQ.

Enjoy,
Gary

G Wiv wrote:

Vital Information wrote:First, for the most part, for various regulatory and economic reasons, places around us cannot build real "pits" or smokers.

Rob,

A Chicago style 'Aquarium' style smoker is a 'real pit' A few places even burn all wood, Honey One for example. Unfortunately most, with just a few exceptions, even some of the straight wood burners like I 57, do not produce good BBQ.

Enjoy,
Gary

Yea, I know that the aquarium style smokers are real pits, and they work well at times, especially for ribs in the Chicago style, but I think these pits have limitations and at least partially account for the general state of BBQ in Chicago.

Also, interestingly, how many of the "white" places around here, say Merles, Uncle Bub's, Smoke Daddy's, Fat Willies, etc. use aquarium style cookers? Why is that?

Still, I would say, that the ability to have meat in its prime state is the much bigger issue than the actual smoker.

Rob

Vital Information wrote:Yea, I know that the aquarium style smokers are real pits, and they work well at times, especially for ribs in the Chicago style, but I think these pits have limitations and at least partially account for the general state of BBQ in Chicago.

Rob,

Chicago 'Aquarium' style smokers cook very much like the direct pits used in Texas Hill country. Fire about 22" from the meat, fat dripping directly on the fire. No limitations on a Aquarium pit, aside from the talent of the operator.

Vital Information wrote:Also, interestingly, how many of the "white" places around here, say Merles, Uncle Bub's, Smoke Daddy's, Fat Willies, etc. use aquarium style cookers? Why is that?

Economics. It's a lot easier to train a $10 an hour worker to operate a Southern Pride or Old Hickory commercial gas fired 'pit' than the years of practice, until it becomes reflex, it takes to operate an wood, or even charcoal for that matter, BBQ pit.

Vital Information wrote:Still, I would say, that the ability to have meat in its prime state is the much bigger issue than the actual smoker.

To a certain extent, but the emphasis should not be on the Smoker (equipment) but on the Pit Man. A really good BBQ guy can produce damn good BBQ on a cut-in-half 55-gal drum or a rusty wheelbarrow with a grate tossed over.

Hell, even I've made pretty edible BBQ with just a few cinder blocks and cardboard for a lid.




Enjoy,
Gary

JeffB wrote:Well, I would be surprised if there are many pizza makers going to the trouble to hand toss dough that has been frozen. I'm no food scientist, but it seems to me that pulling and stretching an elastic medium like pizza dough would have a different effect on the final product than simply pressing or flattening the dough though a commercial roller (which many pizzarie use) or pushing with your fingertips. Someone with more scientific knowledge could set this straight. Until then, I'm also going on hearsay plus personal observation at home, at family's pizza places, and in Italy, NY, PA, etc.

From what I recall, dough tossing accomplishes three things:
(1) makes the crust thinner (and wider as it spins): the outer crust pulls dough in the center as it spins, making it thinner than just with the rolling pin or whatever mechanized method;
(2) gives the crust even thinness
(3) makes the pizza maker look cool

I definitely recall dough tossers using fresh dough when they toss. I also recall them speaking with people who walk in for a slice, sort of a barista before there was Starbucks. And for some reason there was a dress code: short-sleeved white shirt unbuttoned to show wife-beater undershirt and gold chains. Sorry to see they went the way of the soda jerk.

Couple of follow-up thoughts.

Pizza: I have always said Chicago thin, with it's "short" dough or whatever you want to call it, can be great. I'm not surprised that a place like Vito and Nick's uses a roller, since it would be tough to get that dough that thin without one. I also doubt that hand tossing would even work with this kind of crust, which is more play-do than silly putty, if you can excuse the childish comparison. Uniformity of thickness (or thinness) makes sense when you want to make a cracker crust to be cut in squares.

However, when we are talking about a simple "NY" style dough, I see several problems with the way slice places often do it here (and in NY and other east coast capitals, BTW): the roller is no subtsitute for centripetal force when you want taper and the use of a machine to perforate the dough to eliminate bubbles is really counterintuitive-- bubbles are good. Also, it appears that many of these places put the pizza in the oven on a cold aluminum pan, an obvious mistake that slows down what is supposed to be a very fast process, not unlike the way nan, pita, and tortillas are best made. Clearly all of the above make things easier and more uniform for unskilled pizza place employees. They don't make the pizza better.

For reasons unexplained, the worlds finest amusement park, Kennywood in P'Burgh, offers a bit of pizza science here.

www.kennywood.com/kennywoodpizza2.pdf [url]

Regarding BBQ, I'm not as down on Chicago BBQ as some, but it is hard to find on the North Side. I wonder about these regulations. Coleman's on the West side has a duct that almost comically runs to the top of maybe a 5 or 6 storey building, and all of the aquarium places churn out plenty of smoke. Clearly, the Leons on Ashland is set up for real wood smoking, though I don't believe that smoke has ever entered that building. Plus, I have seen "commercial" high-volume smokers that do not depend on any gas or electricity. I just saw something about a BBQ place in Branson, MO, of all places owner by one of the C&W entertainers (can't recall) that features a huge indoor smoker that looks like a bank vault. The way the thing was sealed up, I wonder whether it would emit any more smoke than the wide-open pit at Lem's.

Uncle Bub's, like the Corky's chain and the chains in TX can put out a decent product with gas. But Uncle Bubs does use its huge trailer smoker, parked in front, at times as well.

Not to end on a sour note, but I went to the Texan in Algonquin last week. Nice setting, and it looks the part, but my meal was really bad. Everything tasted pretty darn old, dried out, and reheated. The brisket tasted of smoke, nothing else did.

Last but not least, the mesquite smoked ribs at Hacienda (that's right, the Tex Mex chain) are not too shabby if you are stuck eating there. They come dry, and taste good dry -- more than you can say for most places.

FYI: A new location of Got Pizza is opening up at Oakley and North Ave. Not sure when, but looks like it'll be very soon. They're calling it "Got Pizza Music Cafe".

I kind of doubt they'll do very well with santullo's and piece just a few blocks away. But we'll see.

-ed

Got Pizza Music Cafe VI
2255 W. North Ave
Chicago, IL 60647
773.238.9999

Got Pizza's got a business plan.

I ran into this when I saw something about a new Got Pizza Music Cafe in Tampa. Not sure what the Chicago/Tampa connection is. I swear, it's not me. So, they are not the little guy they seemed to be, FWIW.

BTW, what's Got Pizza's Chicago thick crust all about? I grew up under the misimpression that Chicago style pizza meant a thick, bready crust and not "deep dish" (Chicago thin is as unknown to America at large as Italian beef). Apart from bakery/sheet pizza, Chicago in fact is a very tough place to find thick, spongy, bready pizza crust outside a crappy chain such as Pizza Hut (pan pizza, I think it's called, further confusing things).

Is Got Pizza selling a misconception of "Chicago Style" pizza to Chicago?

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/050211/115349_1.html

They're all the same chain. http://www.gotpizza.com

Oops, now I see you were talking about why Chicago and Tampa, instead of, say, Poughkeepsie and Santa Fe. I have no clue.

Jeff B wrote:Apart from bakery/sheet pizza, Chicago in fact is a very tough place to find thick, spongy, bready pizza crust outside a crappy chain such as Pizza Hut (pan pizza, I think it's called, further confusing things).

You think? Seems to me that tons of places offer a "pan" and a "deep dish" or "stuffed," and it's by no means uncommon to see a pan style as the only thick offering, such as Pequod's (probably the best I've found):



Once upon a time, my favorite pizza was Leona's deep dish, and I had to take considerable pains on the phone to make sure they made me that and not the pan. Finally, they must have decided that the deep dish took too long in the oven-- a full hour-- so they killed it, pan only. That was pretty much the end of Leona's for me. (The closest I've found to that pizza is La Gondola's deep dish.)